One only needs to be unconscious or with broken bones so you cant move. I dont however see any incidents for storage of new and unused batteries, can I assume there are none reported at all? Energy Storage Finally Emerges As The Magic Bullet For Tesla We start seeing those in the news, where the driver could not escape and died by the fire, and the firemen could not do anything either. There has been a ton of great info shared by @Zerosumgame33 on most every aspect of the Megapack business.At first glance, the numbers seem too good to be true. We need a better solution and its coming, just not fast enough. Clean tech and sustainability market research. Tesla Energy has not made much of a profit and the numbers being touted seem too good to be true. There are over 1,000 gas and coal peaker plants in the U.S. providing 236 GW of power that are dirty and expensive. You would think theyd space them out a bit more so one burning module couldnt ignite its neighbours. Its made by Redflow. Any sufficiently energy-dense thing has its risks.). Panel Van back in the 1960s. Gross margins are about to explode higher. But the biggest variable is what you call the Solar cells lifespan modern ones really dont degrade the way early ones did (and those ones still work at very reduced output if they avoided physical damage). 1) There are taxation loopholes that are extremely favourable to real estate land banking, population approx 22000, median income $32K AUD, 85% employment ( 30% part time ) and on/near highway, 3.3 acres $2.2M AUD ( roughly $1.6M USD ). That's TWO huge cost boosts - the reduced price of batteries and the increased price of the Megapack overall. hydrogen goes up, it doesnt pool under the vehicle like liquid fuels nor is it a chunk weighing a 1/4 to 1/2 the cars weight. Ebike batteries would be a good destination for them. Model 3 Performance 315 mi; Model 3 Rear-Wheel Drive 272 mi; and some of the reasons for this are : if its charged, its all stuck in the carbon anodelots of surface to make the reaction go faster. Does this foretell what could happen in a new Tesla coming off final assembly, or after its sold? Maybe they could Design a type of snuffer, similar to a candle snuffer that can be placed over the burning unit and let the fire burn the oxygen out, thus removing one portion of the fire triangle. Three square km of poor farming land (mostly forest) lying 250 km from the capital is worth about the same as a middle of the range house in town.The cost of farms is currently surging, though, across the state. Two mobile units were deployed to the area by the Environment Protection Authority of Victoria. The fire was fought by the members of the Country Fire Authority as well as Fire Rescue Victoria. Just how much less is going to be very variable for instance if you set up a fixed install pointing at the mid-day sun you will get a greater amount of power out of it than pointing at the morning or evening sun but evening sun is actually a good idea sometimes as that is when in many households the peak of consumption is. the ability of the land to pay for itself, through available local income for the owner or through direct earned returns. Seems we humans have been attempting flammable transport and energy solutions for a while. One issue is that oxygen (maybe) is being produced by on-fire battery to fuel fire. Tesla's Megapack Battery Burned For Days In Grid Storage Fire Not sure if its the same stuff, but military aircraft firefighting foam is made of some nasty, persistent chemicals that really enjoy getting into groundwater. Reactivity and fire potential drop rapidly with state-of-charge. would be better to literally bury them individually with a wooden roof structure, so when they caught fire, they could self extinguish, or just keep all that carbon local into said pile of dirt or sand, or other cheap/free extinguishing material. Its called the ESOEI energy stored per energy invested. Jeremy covers Tesla developments at Torque News. See also NFPA 855. Actually, the site layout could be designed differently, in a way, that when a container unit would have a thermal run-away event it could be safely disconnected from grid and be ejected away from the other containers to an empty row safe area. Wouldnt have happened with a front-wheel Drive. Lithium batteries may be nice for the power they can store but I dont think enough engineering has been put into them for the reason they are so dangerous. Now that we have Brexit, we will have to see what happens. The Tesla Megapack is large-scale rechargeable lithium-ion battery stationary energy storage product, intended for use at battery storage power stations, manufactured by Tesla Energy, the clean energy subsidiary of Tesla, Inc. If they dont figure out this burning issue, theyre never going to reach the goals set fourth. Learn more, Teslas Megapack Battery Burned For Days In Grid Storage Fire, Lithium batteries tend to burn quite fiercely. Thus, the lead acid solution may well be better, both from a cost and environmental impact standpoint. This tool for battery fire and explosion incidents is quite interesting. In reply to Murray: Lithium-ion batteries have comparatively little lithium and it is not in its elemental state. Going up north drops it to around 3-6 in places like Scandinavia. Tesla will build a new Megafactory in Shanghai, China. HF can be neutralised with an Encapsulator Agent suppressant, prevents hydrofluoric acid runoff, it was kept largely out of the eyes of mainstream media as well. Summary Storage is growing faster than autos. Temperature readings were taken every two hours so that any heating or reignition could quickly be subdued. There is more. Re cooling, do you know about F-500EA manufactured in Georgia? For my off-grid build, its a choice between a pair of them or a bunch of Lithium Titanate batteries, which are also claimed to be long-life and less self-immolating than other lithium chemistries. Without knowing land prices in Texas Ill lean on your knowledge/experience for the comparison, but saying it makes absolutely no sense is a just silly. New Megapack factories can and should be built. They are ripe for disruption. Id say this is a great practice run. Dan Maloney has added a new log for 3D Printing Food Hack Chat. As of one month ago, the 'Order Megapack' page was showing 2.6 MWH, but Tesla has quietly increased the energy capacity by 50%, as spotted by one Reddit user.. The Astonishing Economics of the Tesla Megapack | Torque News 5/16/2023 11:13 am The Tesla Powerwall is one of the most popular solar batteries. Tesla Megapack could be sold out for the next 2 years | Electrek The electrolyte in lithium batteries is lithium hexafluorophosphate. And a massive pain for maintenance. There has been lots of misreporting on this from Australian media ( backed by anti renewables news media ) so I am not surprised. Seen a few charred bits of wall in old battery rooms. Just not knowing what logistical model they had chosen I assumed they would keep each of their battery crates in rows and the rows further apart using something like a forklift or dockyard crane And that method allows you to put the rows however far apart you feel like, even over multiple satellite locations sharing the crane(s), the only limitation is the rows cant get too close together that the service vehicle cant get access which with a system all about vast scale at the outset seems like a more scaleable model to further increase scale as/when needed. Maybe they took a thermal camera around every 2 hours? Tesla will open a new Megafactory in Shanghai that is capable of producing 10,000 Megapacks a year, the company announced Sunday. The facility would be an order of magnitude larger and still not deliver anywhere near the same instantaneous power. Heard of the vanadium redox flow battery? Pouring water on an alkali metal fire will produce heat and hydrogen gas, so in effect you are adding more fuel into the fire. The total addressable market for storage is greater than that for autos. As reported last week, PG&E's Tesla Megapack project has been approved for expansion by CPUC, and it is expected to grow to up to 1.1 GWh of capacity - making it one of the largest battery . Tesla Megapack - Wikipedia The U.S. has created the IRA for tax credits. It would have been great if the whole lot went up and we stop this nonsense and go for a proper energy source, like nuclear, which can supply basal demand without storage. The concern with lithium-ion systems is typically that water could cause electrical faults and shorts in undamaged cells. hydrogen fluoride (HF) may be generated, ranging between 20 and 200mg/Wh *That* might have been interesting, It wouldnt have happened if theyd used The video Tesla has posted on its official Twitter and Instagram account. Lewin Day August 12, 2021 Lithium rechargeable batteries have been heralded for their high-density energy storage, enabling all manner of technologies to come to fruition. Australia is large, but land is still expensive anywhere near cities. Where do you get your metrics, and what is being presumed about the energy cost of lead acid battery manufacture? I doubt thats true. In the end, we are all kinda floating on a bed of molten rock, and i hope that our core fire does not stop any time soon. That might not go so well next time. The point is that statistics dont always mean what they appear to mean and logical deductions based upon them can result in incorrect conclusions. Go Anywhere | Tesla Are they ice wagons? Theyre just less economical to run that way because a lower average load factor means less energy produced over the permitted lifespan of the plant. Both can happen, and there isnt a great deal to do once the fire is really going to save the poor trapped sod its not like petrol or diesel is easily put out safely, or you can just walk up to something that may decide it does want to explode, being on fire and full of fuel vapours to cut your way in. One commenter pointed out that Tesla Powerpack pricing is now at $539/kWh. IIRC the charge/discharge efficiency of a lead acid battery is around 60%, while lithium gets to 90% or so. I didnt see where anyone took into consideration the part about reaching down from a crane with some sort of lifting device to attach to a FLAMING HOT MEGA watt battery pack ! Leave your comments below, share the article with friends and tweet it out to your followers. Rather, it has its hands in a number of other . They will have to come up with some kind of suppression system. I know, it makes absolutely no sense but it is true. Shifting to a 4-hour Megapack duration . Yes even and especially in industrial environments all electrical components have a UL OR equivalent rating. liked Bench Power Supply. .. Grid scale transformers are typically filled with a highly toxic liquid for heat management and to act as a dielectric. If done early enough it would be possible to save some of the cells in the pack, to boot. But many if any extra deaths from being stuck inside the burning car assuming crash safety cells continue to be a thing required in new cars are very unlikely a crash bad enough to get you properly stuck and actually rupture the battery probably caused you enough injury you are dead and just dont know it yet anyway, That said Id rather not check out of this life that little bit early burning to death, even if I was going to die of other injury soon anyway. Chemistry and packaging has a large say. Lower energy density, but higher thermal stability and tailored for permanent installations. I know there are size & weight savings considerations, but in a application like this that should not matter. https://abc7chicago.com/morris-fire-update-evacuation/10849672/. Model S 405 mi; Model S Plaid 396 mi; Model X SUV All-Wheel Drive. At 33,000 pounds, they weigh 64% more. Despite early concerns and a warning for residents to shut windows and remain indoors, official reports soon gave the local atmosphere the all clear. Tesla deploys new Megapack in Canada, could save small - Electrek Theres a coal mine fire in Centralia, Pennsylvania that has been burning for more than 50 years. That is after a very recent price cut and is still close to $600/kWh. Clearly this thread leads to suggesting nitroglycerin powered cars as beng the most fire safe as they would have she shortest burn time. However, the goal is usually not extinguishing, but cooling to keep the thermal runaway from propagating between cells. This is a test to see how my RWD Long Range Model 3 does on a long road trip. Right away, the Lathrop Megapack draws much more money. Besides getting the best batteries manufactured through its suppliers (Panasonic, LG, and CATL) Tesla engineers constantly work to improve car battery efficiency via over-the-air software updates. It's backed by one of the top solar energy companies and stores excess energy from your solar system to use at night, during power outages, or to offset high electricity costs. We have enough space in Australia why not good old serviceable and non flammable lead acid? Now how much of a lithium cell is recyclable? The Megapack has a maximum energy capacity of 3 megawatt-hours (MWh), equivalent to 3,000 kilowatt-hours (kWh). Sounds like we will see more of this, Illinois had an industrial lithium fire in late june / early july at an old paper mill. if a battery catches fire just have a remote dozer push tons of earth over it. Model X 351 mi; Model X Plaid 335 mi; Model 3 Sedan. There are some astonishing economics of the Tesla Megapack that you may be missing. The battery fire can be suppressed, and slowed significantly, and unlike a vapour full ICE car it shouldnt ever be able to really explode.. Its all swings and roundabouts, and getting to a fire early in either case is hugely important, dont get there early and managing it in a way to save any occupants is basically impossible. Toxic gases produced by the Lithium-ion battery fires might be why. Elon Musk will only make a phone as a last resort. When you put this together and see that Lathrop is producing 5 to 10 times more Megapacks, you also see economies of scale take place, which will drop fixed costs. Once ecars catch fire they are hard to put out, petrol fires, on the other hand, usually put themselves out more quickly when they explode. It seems like one of the nastiest ways to die, and more burnt dead in the accident I do see as more likely with the current battery chemistry being so volatile, >probably caused you enough injury you are dead. The acronym/term BESS (Battery Energy Storage Systems) could maybe included in the original article? This was expensive for the NMC batteries Tesla was using. I just watched a demonstration of a fire blanket that can be draped over a burning EV. The price of land suitable for a grid-scale battery may be a bit higher, because it has to be adjacent to a major power feeder, ideally near a solar farm. Tesla Megafactory Lathrop Went From Groundbreaking To Megapack When we find a way to violate all the laws of thermodynamics. firefighters can easily put out a fire in an ice powered car. Australian land is extremely expensive, you would pay less for land in Texas than almost anywhere within cooee ( Oz Slang for Short distance ) of any constructed environment in Australia. Regardless of the potential Ameri-centric discussion, UL is probably still applicable in this case in terms of the design. A huge Tesla battery pack was on fire for four days until firefighters managed to put it out. An end mill isnt electrical. IKEA to Launch Solar Roof Offering . Now that we have choices, all we can ask is that prices decline. Tesla's next Megapack battery storage factory will be in Shanghai Need to vent excess hydrogen but much more robust I would think. Its far from perfect of course and nothing is truly infinite, but in terms of power generation a solar cell is by an enormous margin the most long lived without replacement parts, With just a little looking after a solar panel should keep working for a very very very very long time Infact there are heaps of them around of much more primitive construction that are still just working at reduced output after decades. To over-simplify it electronics (but not low voltage or extra low voltage) is different, thats covered by different code and I cant comment on whether something needs UL rating. Also, Lithium costs were stable prior to 2022, but then went to 5x to 6x in 2022. In South Wales, theres places where digging produced smoke years later. Tesla begins construction on world's largest Megapack - Electrek Obviously, a large fire lasting multiple days in a grid storage facility is an outcome that nobody wants. If one goes bung, it switches off-line, and the installation keeps on trucking. Suppliers globally can design and certify their modules/assemblies to not propagate, case of Tesla, OR they can build in sprinklers, typically actually its a water supply with a temperature controlled valve that floods the battery module to control the temp so the fire does not spread. Now who is supposed to go in there to disconnect all that power while flames are wafting around then attach lifting clamps to the battery pack so it can be raised out of there on fire and then where to go with it? Only two battery packs caught fire out of the many on site (210 are planned in total), and electrical risks were properly managed to avoid disaster. so basically spongebob patrick meme why dont we take all the batteries here and move them over there. But having read around a bit, some fire resistant shroud probably turns your (not good) fire into a (really not good) bomb. Megapack is not new - why have margins been low and profit low? How long do residential energy storage batteries last? But if/when a tanker/refinery/fuel lorry accident happens its orders of magnitude worse, and the more of them working you require because you keep burning fuel the more likely such an accident. Rather limited operating temperature range which might be a problem in some places. Flat voltage during discharge, factor of 20%? Quick action by firefighting crews kept the entire facility from burning down, limiting the flames from spreading beyond a second battery pack. I guess you didnt read the part about water and Li batteries. Witnessing the aftermath of a car fire on the road and the nearby structures is quite something. Distributed means spread out, it does not necessarily equate to redundancy. More or less designed to be able to buen out without taking out their neighbours. If this kind of thing catch on, theres eventually going to be a Texas City-like incident. The national highway traffic safety administration used to argue against drunk driving on the basis of the statistic that half of all highway fatalities involve the use of alcohol.. I do not think that anyone who reads here does not know what HF does totally scary stuff. For example, in the source article, the figure for 32 lithium-ion comes from assuming a 6,000 cycle lifespan. At most they lit one adjacent pack (may have been part of the fault) under a full burn to the ground event for 2 units. Now its a lot rarer but still occasionally happen during heavy rains. The Astonishing Economics of the Tesla Megapack | It's come to my attention that the $TSLA Faithful are beginning a new bull narrative (FSD and robots are so 2021-22), based on "Megapack". @SkitCoin I never said Victoria in my original comment, so when I produced evidence of the ridiculousness of Australian real estate values I used Commercial land in an are of NSW I am familiar with. When it comes in to contact with water, it splits and combines with the water to make lithium phosphate and hydrofluoric acid. At 70 MPa it doesnt go up. And to actually create fuel the refinery needs still pretty flammable crude oil, which has to be shipped in from somewhere so even if these batteries prove a little more unstable than ideal all the various fire risks and the scale of the devastation (see the tanker the front fell off for instance) when a step in that line does go wrong means they are probably worth it!
